"No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots."
-Barbara Ehrenreich
Sunday, August 19, 2012
This Video MIGHT Stop Romney From Becoming President
What a bunch of BS. Other than the quote from McConnell, this is all just utter BS. These are the types of things, on both sides by the way, that informed people should just disregard and laugh off. Get a grip folks. Truly listen to both sides. Stop demonizing conservatives, millionaires, the 1% or any other group of people that are, by definition, evil because they have certain political beliefs or economic station. I know most of those who read this blog will disagree with this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bib7kKBhqs(most will probably will turn it off because of the hatred you have for him and his kind) but give it a listen and tell us why he is wrong. Debate the policy and not your opinion of what evil doing is really being proposed. I have never understood why liberals and progressives bash the Kochs but never mention George Soros or why they have a belief that they have a franchise on caring for the needy and poor. I have no problem debating the best way to give people in need a chance but I do have a problem saying conservatives do not care.
I readily admit that it is slanted and misses the mark in places (the dog on the car, the tax return thing-everyone knows that Romney is crazy rich).
Anyway...prong 1.
I don't think that the GOP sabotaged the economy on purpose, but do believe that it was the 1% that got us into this mess. I also believe that the the GOP purposely stood in the way of recovery so they would have Obama for a scapegoat. By the way, during the last election I also said that the Dems would do the same thing if McCain won. What I don't get is the number of folks that BLAME Obama for the bad economy, even though it is better now than the complete disaster he inherited.
Here in Wisconsin, we have seen how bad Walker's policies have worked (another month of horrible job creation), which is exactly what many predicted when you hammer union workers (ie. consumers), blah, blah, blah. I am not quite sure how you can say that this is Obama's fault, when Wisconsin ranks nearly last in most of the economic recovery indicators. That is Walker...not Obama.
As for McConnell's comment, I have heard that repeatedly from conservatives for the last couple years. I don't think he is isolation.
Prong 2-I am not even sure how you can debate this one. Yes, the Dems suck up to big money, but the numbers aren't even close. I would also add that there is a difference in contributing to a conservative or liberal cause, and using your money to blatantly distort. Go check out "American's for Prosperity" on Politifact. Of their current ads that have been evaulated, 0% of them grade out as even partially truthful. The Koch Bros are about manipulation and distortion. We saw it in Wisconsin as well, where they spearheaded a PR campaign against teachers that was so inaccurate it was borderline funny. If you can find groups throwing around money at the same level and with such underhanded methods as them, I'd love to hear about them. In fact, I have long said that the GOP has been masterful in their intentional distortions, staring with Rove, MUCH better than the Dems (who try from time to time, but frankly aren't nearly as good at it). Should we look back at how much more Walker spent than Barrett and how much of that was out of state? Did Soros contribute millions of dollars to Barrett? Anyway, you know that I think big money should be taken out from both sides, but don't think there is any real comparison here as the corporate world contributes a lot more. Something like 8 of the 10 biggest donor groups are corporate interests that donate to GOP causes. The other two are unions that give money to Dem causes and if you can find a record of the teacher's union being as underhanded as the Koch Bros, I'd love to see it.
Prong 3-voter suppression. Wisconsin GOP have admitted publicly their intent to change voting patterns with the redistricting and voter ID nonsense. There is no other purpose other than keeping people from voting. It was wrong in Wisconsin and it is wrong everywhere else. When there are more cases of being hit by lightning than documented voter fraud, we really need laws to limit LEGAL voters (a majority of whom are more likely to vote Dem). There is a reason that these have all been done in GOP states. It isn't brain surgery.
Bottom line is that I though the video is a bit condescending and edges in places towards propaganda (it is MoveOn of course), but the strategy is no secret. Heck, a lot of GOP pundits have admitted as such and frankly, I am surprised anyone would argue with it.
I posted it simply because I thought it was an interesting presentation of what is pretty well known. Heck some might say it is case of the liberals actually trying to eek into the realm of the Tea Party game plan.
I believe what got us in this mess was not the 1% but a government push to create a society where everyone could own a home. Regulators were told to look the other way. Banks were told to make loans under any circumstances. Wall Street reacted by bundling these mortgages in stupid ways because they had to do something with them. I do not give wall street a free pass on this. The big mistake they made was not calling a halt to this when they saw the bubble would burst. However, in my mind the biggest contributors to the fall of 2008 was government and their push to give people money to buy houses and not controlling fanny may and freddie mac. You say the 1% caused this. Help me out there. How did the 1% do this?
No disagreement about taking big money out of politics. However big money is big money and to bash one source and not the other is the same old crap. One is good and one is evil. I have not seen one political ad, on either side, this year which remotely represents the facts as I understand them. I have been around presidential campaigns since Kennedy and this is by far the worst. I do not even watch them anymore. My go to source is realclearpolitics.com so I can read both sides of the argument. The ads are a waste of my time. As far as the Walker deal I was not here for most of it but for the part I was here for I never saw an ad that portrayed teachers in a negative way. The teachers union yes (you and I have had that debate) but not teachers. So I might have missed those.
As far as voter suppression laws I really have not paid much attention. Redistricting has always been a pert of the game depending on what party is in control. As far as voter ID is concerned I think it is a good idea and do not see why it should not be part of the voting process. If we all agreed that voting ID is a good idea then we could focus on how to get qualified voters ID in a simple secure way. That should not be that difficult in today's modern society.
Regarding your "strategy is not a secret" I beg to differ. If you listen to the Republicans define their strategy and believe it, then what these idiots in the video are saying is totally wrong. However if you listen to the political heads on the left tell you what the Republicans are really saying (as they see it and will interpret for you since you are not smart enough to interpret for yourself) then I have nothing to say.
Paul what this gets down to is the left and progressives believing they have a franchise on caring. Caring for the poor, the down trodden, the disadvantaged etc etc. and then believing that somehow the conservative folks just care about themselves, their buddies and the 1%. That has been a good tactic of the left but it is not true. There is just a difference in approach to taking care of these folks. We can debate forever whether you believe me here or not, or who cares more, but the debate should be on the approach. Once we get there then we might make some progress. Until then we will go nowhere.
The point of yours I'd like to address is your final one about a franchise on caring. To be honest, this is exactly how I view it. Not that conservatives aren't caring people within their individual worlds, but rather, I am not sure I have ever seen a formal conservative political agenda with regards to women's right, education, poverty, and what is traditionally viewed as the "disadvantaged" beyond essentially they are lazy and sucking off the government teet and if we take away that teet, they will learn how to be productive.
I see agendas such as cutting education, attempts to privatize school, the attack on Medicare, attacks on Planned Parenthood, welfare reform, cuts in inner city infrastructure, elimination of affirmative action, etc. Without even getting into the specifics (as I think you can argue pros and cons about many of these issues), it sure looks like when they utter their rhetoric about "big government", it almost always is code for things that disproportionately affect the lesser off (usually accompanied by more tax loopholes for corporations, concessions to big oil, and tax cuts for the upper class).
During the GOP admins of the last 30 years, we have seen massive and widening gaps between the rich and the poor.
Anyway, my question is how would you explain the conservative approach to the disenfranchised? I am not saying it doesn't exist, but honest to god I couldn't tell you what they believe beyond just cutting them off so they aren't dependent and waiting for the money to trickle down (even though it never does). I can summarize their position on foreign policy, economic growth, social issues or whatever, but when it comes to poverty, inner city growth, health care for the poor, etc.....you got me.
For what it is worth, I don't think the Dems have done a particularly good job in terms of getting results, but at least they seem to try..and yes fail a lot...from time to time. I don't see that from the Repubs at all, which is in recent history, these groups have voted so heavily Democratic.
Here is the Republican platform for 2008. http://whitehouse12.com/republican-party-platform/ They will be coming out with one for 2012 at the convention. It is not a good idea to get the republican agenda from liberal sources. The whole problem with all the crap flying around is that people take what they hear and read and assume it is gospel. Go to the source. The big difference as I see it is Democrats want to solve problems immediately by treating the symptom. Republicans are more likely to try to attack the cause of the problem and try to fix the cause so the symptom goes away. Sometimes when attacking a root cause things have to be cut on a temporary basis. I liken it to some of the tough decisions I had to make running my business. Only once in our history did I have to lay off people. It was a horrible situation but we decided that if we were going to save the company for everyone we would have to lay off a few. I am sure the people laid off saw it as mean spirited and a cutback and that we just did not care about them. On the contrary we cared deeply about them and made our decision in order to strengthen the company and hire all of those people back (which we did 8 months later). Republicans do have agenda's for all you mentioned. The agenda is set in their beliefs. While you may not agree with them I do not think you can point to any of these agenda items and say "see they just do not care about that constituency".
I read it and frankly, I don't see a lot there. I see a whole bunch on taxation, foreign policy, conservative social issues like marriage, abortion, etc. but very, very little about dealing with the underclass. For example, they take a position on gang violence, but that position essentially consists only of tougher prison sentences, a strategy that has proven to be exceptionally costly and historically ineffective. Maybe I missed it but there is little there addressing why kids get into gangs in the first place.
Aside from a glaring lack of focus on so-called "caring" issues, we also have to look at actions as opposed to simple position statements. You can talk about wanting to guarantee education for all through programs like "No Child Left Behind", but when you massively cut education budgets and/or provide no tools to allow your initiative to succeed, it is just a statement without merit.
You can talk about wanting to guarantee collective bargaining rights, but when you go on a national attack against unions, that carries more weight. (And yes, I realize the GOP agenda has morphed in the last four years with much greater Tea Party influence so all of these statements are not consistent with today.)
As noted, we can argue about whether the Democratic attempts have been successful (some have, some haven't IMO), but I don't think there is any question that they have made the underclass MUCH more of a priority. The Republicans seem to readily admit that their policy revolves around the free market and things basically working themselves out via the trickle down philosophy. When you look at how they have governed and the results, I don't know how that can be argued, and I think that most Americans would agree.
I do agree that the Dems generally want to treat the symptoms, but I disagree strongly that the Repubs are more likely to attack the cause of the problem. I don't think they make any attempt at all at addressing the cause of issues like poverty, the rotting inner cities, immigrants, crime, etc. Either that or they are completely naive and so off base that it comes across that way.
I don't think conservatives like you are bad guys. I know you and know that you are "good people" and ran your business in a humanitarian way (while still adhering to conservative ideals). I know that you value things like education, women's rights, and so forth. I just don't think your party holds these same ideals beyond lip service (at best).
I have some friends that are exceptionally conservative in terms of social issues (very religious, very fiscally conscious, etc.). They are appalled at what their party has become. They have said many times that they are ashamed because they don't believe the GOP truly represents them any more. While they are very anti-Obama, they voted to recall Walker and they probably won't vote in the upcoming election (or may vote for an off-party candidate).
As I have noted in other posts, I am not a big fan of the Democratic party and my vote is not EVER in the bag for them. Based on what I know of you, I am surprised that you don't have a similar feeling towards the GOP because I don't think they really match what you want them to stand for.
What a bunch of BS. Other than the quote from McConnell, this is all just utter BS. These are the types of things, on both sides by the way, that informed people should just disregard and laugh off. Get a grip folks. Truly listen to both sides. Stop demonizing conservatives, millionaires, the 1% or any other group of people that are, by definition, evil because they have certain political beliefs or economic station. I know most of those who read this blog will disagree with this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bib7kKBhqs(most will probably will turn it off because of the hatred you have for him and his kind) but give it a listen and tell us why he is wrong. Debate the policy and not your opinion of what evil doing is really being proposed. I have never understood why liberals and progressives bash the Kochs but never mention George Soros or why they have a belief that they have a franchise on caring for the needy and poor. I have no problem debating the best way to give people in need a chance but I do have a problem saying conservatives do not care.
ReplyDeleteI readily admit that it is slanted and misses the mark in places (the dog on the car, the tax return thing-everyone knows that Romney is crazy rich).
ReplyDeleteAnyway...prong 1.
I don't think that the GOP sabotaged the economy on purpose, but do believe that it was the 1% that got us into this mess. I also believe that the the GOP purposely stood in the way of recovery so they would have Obama for a scapegoat. By the way, during the last election I also said that the Dems would do the same thing if McCain won. What I don't get is the number of folks that BLAME Obama for the bad economy, even though it is better now than the complete disaster he inherited.
Here in Wisconsin, we have seen how bad Walker's policies have worked (another month of horrible job creation), which is exactly what many predicted when you hammer union workers (ie. consumers), blah, blah, blah. I am not quite sure how you can say that this is Obama's fault, when Wisconsin ranks nearly last in most of the economic recovery indicators. That is Walker...not Obama.
As for McConnell's comment, I have heard that repeatedly from conservatives for the last couple years. I don't think he is isolation.
Prong 2-I am not even sure how you can debate this one. Yes, the Dems suck up to big money, but the numbers aren't even close. I would also add that there is a difference in contributing to a conservative or liberal cause, and using your money to blatantly distort. Go check out "American's for Prosperity" on Politifact. Of their current ads that have been evaulated, 0% of them grade out as even partially truthful. The Koch Bros are about manipulation and distortion. We saw it in Wisconsin as well, where they spearheaded a PR campaign against teachers that was so inaccurate it was borderline funny. If you can find groups throwing around money at the same level and with such underhanded methods as them, I'd love to hear about them. In fact, I have long said that the GOP has been masterful in their intentional distortions, staring with Rove, MUCH better than the Dems (who try from time to time, but frankly aren't nearly as good at it). Should we look back at how much more Walker spent than Barrett and how much of that was out of state? Did Soros contribute millions of dollars to Barrett? Anyway, you know that I think big money should be taken out from both sides, but don't think there is any real comparison here as the corporate world contributes a lot more. Something like 8 of the 10 biggest donor groups are corporate interests that donate to GOP causes. The other two are unions that give money to Dem causes and if you can find a record of the teacher's union being as underhanded as the Koch Bros, I'd love to see it.
Prong 3-voter suppression. Wisconsin GOP have admitted publicly their intent to change voting patterns with the redistricting and voter ID nonsense. There is no other purpose other than keeping people from voting. It was wrong in Wisconsin and it is wrong everywhere else. When there are more cases of being hit by lightning than documented voter fraud, we really need laws to limit LEGAL voters (a majority of whom are more likely to vote Dem). There is a reason that these have all been done in GOP states. It isn't brain surgery.
Bottom line is that I though the video is a bit condescending and edges in places towards propaganda (it is MoveOn of course), but the strategy is no secret. Heck, a lot of GOP pundits have admitted as such and frankly, I am surprised anyone would argue with it.
I posted it simply because I thought it was an interesting presentation of what is pretty well known. Heck some might say it is case of the liberals actually trying to eek into the realm of the Tea Party game plan.
Thanks for the comment, Jere.
I believe what got us in this mess was not the 1% but a government push to create a society where everyone could own a home. Regulators were told to look the other way. Banks were told to make loans under any circumstances. Wall Street reacted by bundling these mortgages in stupid ways because they had to do something with them. I do not give wall street a free pass on this. The big mistake they made was not calling a halt to this when they saw the bubble would burst. However, in my mind the biggest contributors to the fall of 2008 was government and their push to give people money to buy houses and not controlling fanny may and freddie mac. You say the 1% caused this. Help me out there. How did the 1% do this?
ReplyDeleteNo disagreement about taking big money out of politics. However big money is big money and to bash one source and not the other is the same old crap. One is good and one is evil. I have not seen one political ad, on either side, this year which remotely represents the facts as I understand them. I have been around presidential campaigns since Kennedy and this is by far the worst. I do not even watch them anymore. My go to source is realclearpolitics.com so I can read both sides of the argument. The ads are a waste of my time. As far as the Walker deal I was not here for most of it but for the part I was here for I never saw an ad that portrayed teachers in a negative way. The teachers union yes (you and I have had that debate) but not teachers. So I might have missed those.
As far as voter suppression laws I really have not paid much attention. Redistricting has always been a pert of the game depending on what party is in control. As far as voter ID is concerned I think it is a good idea and do not see why it should not be part of the voting process. If we all agreed that voting ID is a good idea then we could focus on how to get qualified voters ID in a simple secure way. That should not be that difficult in today's modern society.
Regarding your "strategy is not a secret" I beg to differ. If you listen to the Republicans define their strategy and believe it, then what these idiots in the video are saying is totally wrong. However if you listen to the political heads on the left tell you what the Republicans are really saying (as they see it and will interpret for you since you are not smart enough to interpret for yourself) then I have nothing to say.
Paul what this gets down to is the left and progressives believing they have a franchise on caring. Caring for the poor, the down trodden, the disadvantaged etc etc. and then believing that somehow the conservative folks just care about themselves, their buddies and the 1%. That has been a good tactic of the left but it is not true. There is just a difference in approach to taking care of these folks. We can debate forever whether you believe me here or not, or who cares more, but the debate should be on the approach. Once we get there then we might make some progress. Until then we will go nowhere.
Like your blog.
The point of yours I'd like to address is your final one about a franchise on caring. To be honest, this is exactly how I view it. Not that conservatives aren't caring people within their individual worlds, but rather, I am not sure I have ever seen a formal conservative political agenda with regards to women's right, education, poverty, and what is traditionally viewed as the "disadvantaged" beyond essentially they are lazy and sucking off the government teet and if we take away that teet, they will learn how to be productive.
ReplyDeleteI see agendas such as cutting education, attempts to privatize school, the attack on Medicare, attacks on Planned Parenthood, welfare reform, cuts in inner city infrastructure, elimination of affirmative action, etc. Without even getting into the specifics (as I think you can argue pros and cons about many of these issues), it sure looks like when they utter their rhetoric about "big government", it almost always is code for things that disproportionately affect the lesser off (usually accompanied by more tax loopholes for corporations, concessions to big oil, and tax cuts for the upper class).
During the GOP admins of the last 30 years, we have seen massive and widening gaps between the rich and the poor.
Anyway, my question is how would you explain the conservative approach to the disenfranchised? I am not saying it doesn't exist, but honest to god I couldn't tell you what they believe beyond just cutting them off so they aren't dependent and waiting for the money to trickle down (even though it never does). I can summarize their position on foreign policy, economic growth, social issues or whatever, but when it comes to poverty, inner city growth, health care for the poor, etc.....you got me.
For what it is worth, I don't think the Dems have done a particularly good job in terms of getting results, but at least they seem to try..and yes fail a lot...from time to time. I don't see that from the Repubs at all, which is in recent history, these groups have voted so heavily Democratic.
Here is the Republican platform for 2008. http://whitehouse12.com/republican-party-platform/ They will be coming out with one for 2012 at the convention. It is not a good idea to get the republican agenda from liberal sources. The whole problem with all the crap flying around is that people take what they hear and read and assume it is gospel. Go to the source. The big difference as I see it is Democrats want to solve problems immediately by treating the symptom. Republicans are more likely to try to attack the cause of the problem and try to fix the cause so the symptom goes away. Sometimes when attacking a root cause things have to be cut on a temporary basis. I liken it to some of the tough decisions I had to make running my business. Only once in our history did I have to lay off people. It was a horrible situation but we decided that if we were going to save the company for everyone we would have to lay off a few. I am sure the people laid off saw it as mean spirited and a cutback and that we just did not care about them. On the contrary we cared deeply about them and made our decision in order to strengthen the company and hire all of those people back (which we did 8 months later). Republicans do have agenda's for all you mentioned. The agenda is set in their beliefs. While you may not agree with them I do not think you can point to any of these agenda items and say "see they just do not care about that constituency".
ReplyDeleteI read it and frankly, I don't see a lot there. I see a whole bunch on taxation, foreign policy, conservative social issues like marriage, abortion, etc. but very, very little about dealing with the underclass. For example, they take a position on gang violence, but that position essentially consists only of tougher prison sentences, a strategy that has proven to be exceptionally costly and historically ineffective. Maybe I missed it but there is little there addressing why kids get into gangs in the first place.
ReplyDeleteAside from a glaring lack of focus on so-called "caring" issues, we also have to look at actions as opposed to simple position statements. You can talk about wanting to guarantee education for all through programs like "No Child Left Behind", but when you massively cut education budgets and/or provide no tools to allow your initiative to succeed, it is just a statement without merit.
You can talk about wanting to guarantee collective bargaining rights, but when you go on a national attack against unions, that carries more weight. (And yes, I realize the GOP agenda has morphed in the last four years with much greater Tea Party influence so all of these statements are not consistent with today.)
As noted, we can argue about whether the Democratic attempts have been successful (some have, some haven't IMO), but I don't think there is any question that they have made the underclass MUCH more of a priority. The Republicans seem to readily admit that their policy revolves around the free market and things basically working themselves out via the trickle down philosophy. When you look at how they have governed and the results, I don't know how that can be argued, and I think that most Americans would agree.
I do agree that the Dems generally want to treat the symptoms, but I disagree strongly that the Repubs are more likely to attack the cause of the problem. I don't think they make any attempt at all at addressing the cause of issues like poverty, the rotting inner cities, immigrants, crime, etc. Either that or they are completely naive and so off base that it comes across that way.
I don't think conservatives like you are bad guys. I know you and know that you are "good people" and ran your business in a humanitarian way (while still adhering to conservative ideals). I know that you value things like education, women's rights, and so forth. I just don't think your party holds these same ideals beyond lip service (at best).
I have some friends that are exceptionally conservative in terms of social issues (very religious, very fiscally conscious, etc.). They are appalled at what their party has become. They have said many times that they are ashamed because they don't believe the GOP truly represents them any more. While they are very anti-Obama, they voted to recall Walker and they probably won't vote in the upcoming election (or may vote for an off-party candidate).
As I have noted in other posts, I am not a big fan of the Democratic party and my vote is not EVER in the bag for them. Based on what I know of you, I am surprised that you don't have a similar feeling towards the GOP because I don't think they really match what you want them to stand for.